sage
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If I am a Christian
Let us suppose I am a christian, a good one.
I enjoyed being in church and with my brothers and sisters. They are
very nice to me. I feel very warm. I am among good people. My best
friends are my church brothers and sisters. I go to
bible study and study bible very well. I believe everything inside. My
priest is very smart. I am certainly in good hands. I even feel pretty
lucky recently... It must be the prayers!
I feel very certain. My life has a purpose. I am all set, even after
life, for eternity! I love the feeling of being certain.
I realize that I have made a big big choice for my life and after
life till eternity. Therefore, even I feel very happy, I still like to
sit down with myself just to comb my thought carefully. I am sure I
made the right choice. I am sure after I think hard about everything,
I will be even more certain. I love certainty.
However, after a while, I am deeply deeply worried!! Here is why:
Being a good christian, I firmly believed in the following
1) There is a God. God care about us. There are also demons. for some
reason, they tried all they could to trick us into bad things.
2) There are heaven and hell. These are places for us forever after we
die.
3) The key to enter heaven is believing in God. If we are tricked by
demon, we go to hell, even if we do not realize it is demon.
Wow! this is really really serious. I have to indeed make a very big
decision. It is going to be very hard because demons are really
strong. I have to be able to choose the correct God despite all the
illusions. I have to rethink, rethink and rethink to make sure I made
the right decision... I am not so sure about my choices because I am
not smart. I am not complete without doubt.
I know I am not suppose to look for proofs. I am suppose to
believe. However, how can I, being so stupid, believe without
proof. having doubts probably is
already a sin. However, even Thomas has doubt, even Peter swung a
little. God seems to be OK with doubt if it is temporary.
Since this is so important, I will risk this once to push my doubt
further.
do I know I am believing in the correct God? Do I know the God in the
Internation Standard Version of bible is the correct God?
1) The God in the old testament is a little horrifying. Maybe that's
OK. However, he seems to be quite brutal as well. Suppose before
learning the bible, someone told me about: killing the first borns
of Egyptians, killing everybody in Sodom, wiping out everybody except
Noah, choosing only Jews as his people, delaying the sunset so that
Jashua could kill more enemies... am I going to believe this is a
god or a powerful demon?
2) Is the God in the Old Testament really that powerful? If so, why
there is a hand combat between him and Jacob? Why did he need to
send someone to find out if there is good people in Sodom and
Gomorrah? why there is even an negotiation between him and Abraham,
a mere human, about the fate of those two cities? Why he must kill
rather than change?
Actually, I found I am not along in this. As early as the 2nd century,
theologist Marcion decided that the God in the old testament is not
the correct God. I probably should not believe him. However, this does
not address my puzzles.
How about Jesus in the New Testament?
1) He does not seem to have a very good track record of being
powerful either. He has miracles and cure disease. However, even
bible says devil also cure diseases. Does he know the future? Well,
he told his 12 deciples 'truly I tell you, some of you will not see
death ' before the final judgement. Well, all 12 have long
dead. Demons seem still rule the world.
2) He paid our sin by his death. Does this make sense? paid to whom?
God. Who decide we should pay? God. God decide we should
pay. instead, he killed (of course just temporarily) his
son. because of it, he forgive us, as long as we believe Jesus is
his son. A judge has power of judge if we are guilty. He has the
power of forgiveness. However, if we do not pay for our guilt, he
should not forgive. somehow, he decide to stab himself then forgive
us... somehow, this is not logical to me. It mus be that I am
stupid. however, I can only understand things using my logic. God
created me, including my logic. He created me incapable of
understanding him?
But, wait a minute, is the mere existence of a holy book inspired by
God a proof of correctness? well, let me read it again.
1) why are there two creation stories? why are there two copies of
Noah's Ark stories? why different books of the old testament fit so
well with the Jewish history? why it looks so suspiciously like
serving different political purpose for different times?
2) Is the new testament better? Well, among all the books, Paul's
letter is the earliest. ONLY 20-30 years after the cruxifiction of
Jesus. Is God telling him what to write when he is blinded by God?
Surely God did not tell him to write that woman should not be
allowed to speak in church because they are inferior. However, if
this one is false, how much can I trust his writings?
3) what about the gospels? they are written much later. I know I am
stupid. However, what Jesus exactly said on the Cross? When did he
die? did he instruct deciples not to tell he is the Messiah (like
in Mark), or he said in public 'I am the way, the life...' (in
John)? why they made up the census story which is not histoically
true? If these books are devine inspired, can they be consistent?
should God prevent them from being miscopied?
4) how did those guys in the fourth century decided to throw away half
of the existing books and formed the current bible with the
remianing ones?
....
However, truly I feel very warm among my church brothers and
sisters. Isn't this a proof that this must be the love of God? Well,
how do I know it is love from the God decribed in the bible? I do feel
the love from my fellow church goers. these are love from humans. is
it from God? I would like to think so. However, how do I know?
Suppose I am confused by the demons right now, would the true God
punish me right now and cut off the love I receive? or, would he
choose to judge me later? It seems he would wait, give me chances
during my life time, then judge. If so, I should still feel love even
I am confused by demons. that's good.. On the other hand, this also
means that the fact I received love does not imply I am believing in
the correct God.
......
Since the thinking started, stupid me could not stop. The God in the
bible, according to Paul, teach us justification by Grace. that is,
once you believe, you are all set. If you don't believe, you are all
dead. Is it a little bit strange? for a all loving God? Why is not
believing in God itself a sin? why he care so much about whether we
believe in him or not?
Suppose I have a son. he does not recognize me to be his father
anymore. Suppose he is about to die but I have the medicine to save
him. Do I require he acknowledge me as his father before I save him,
or I just save him without condition?
Suppose I do not believe in justification by Grace, the why should I
care about believing? If bible is wrong on this point, why should I
trust it on other points?
if any single (even minor) point of bible is wrong, why should I trust
all the others on life and death decisions?
......
Suppose I am a christian, I am deeply deeply confused.
Suppose I am a christian, I must must make this very very important
decision on whether I am believing in the correct God. I cannot
without answering all these puzzles.
| 发表时间：2005-06-17, 08:51:56 |
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不再空虚
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Re: If I am a Christian
When we read the holy scripture, we should have an attitude of integrity.Quoting out of the Bible is not servicing of our faith:-( when I finished reading the article , I also to my believing in Jesus Christ :-)
以耶稣基督的心为心
| 发表时间：2005-06-17, 09:57:09 |
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卢昌海
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Re: If I am a Christian
:: When we read the holy scripture, we should have an attitude of
:: integrity.Quoting out of the Bible is not servicing of our faith:-(
Depends on what do you mean by integrity. To me, logically fragmented writing and arguments break integrity. Sage's article and your reply demonstrated very well the difference between an independent thinker and a believer of God. To believers, everything they do has the purpose of "serving their faith", anything that can lead to the opposite is considered erroneous and is discouraged (if not eliminated).
One thing I learned from the debates I had with Christians several years ago, is that no matter how logically solid one might form an argument against the Bible, there is no chance such an argument can make a dent in a believer's mind, there is no chance a believer's mind will swing away from their un-conditional faith for even one second.
Therefore, to me the best purpose our recent discussion can serve is to provide neutral visitors with opinions from both sides, so nobody will be overwhelmingly led by belivers and supporters only.
宠辱不惊，看庭前花开花落
去留无意，望天空云卷云舒
| 发表时间：2005-06-17, 10:32:49 |
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No-go
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Re: If I am a Christian
Wouldn't it look more comfortable if sage used the title "If I were a Christian"?
^-^
| 发表时间：2005-06-17, 18:03:34 |
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可见光
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Re: If I am a Christian
我不信仰宗教，有一个最直接最朴素最简单的原因：如果有佛或者有上帝，那么他们必定是邪恶的；但人们宣扬的却是仁慈的，于是就是一个悖论，所以说它们不存在。
为什么说如果有佛或者有上帝那么他们是邪恶的？因为在这个世界上，从总的来看，从社会统计学的角度看，好人过的远比坏人糟糕、好人难做、社会运行着“恶胜善汰”的生存法则。不要用因果报应来糊弄人，如果是上辈子作了坏事，那应该是上辈子的事，跟这辈子无关，这辈子是无辜的。
生活充满七彩阳光，是为可见光
宇宙无限，爱心永恒！
| 发表时间：2005-06-19, 06:27:14 |
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秦假仙
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Re: If I am a Christian
得，烽火台成了宗教台了。
我也来凑一热闹，上周五在餐厅吃午饭时听到隔壁桌的一对男女的对话：
女：我是信基督教的，也就是信上帝。
男：哦，是么，既然你信上地，为什么不信中关村或者清河？
注：上地、中关村、清河都是北京的地名，三地离得很近。那位男同胞正是用上帝与上地的谐音来讽刺这个傻冒的女人，这也代表了有科学知识、有人文知识、有正确事物观、有各种综合素质的现代中国人对所谓宗教的看法。
英语只是一种极其普通的语言，而中国政府却将其视为划分人才的重要标准之一，这说明中国政府对英语的重视已经到了极扭曲、极变态的程度。不过也正因为如此，中国目前才会处于目前这样的人才凋敝阶段。一旦中美之间爆发全面战争，以中国目前的技术人才储备就很难支持一场高科技的战争；另外，美国只需做好战略宣传配合，大批从小学到高中到大学都接受西式教育的中国青年就不会对美军的征服抱有太大的抵触心理，因为当一个国家用政府命令来强制本国人民重视外语、切断本民族的文化延续性时，这无异于自掘坟墓，在这种教育体制下培养出来的年轻人，奴性更多于民族性。历史上征服者同化异族最有效的手段就是改变这些异族的语言习惯。
| 发表时间：2005-06-19, 21:22:56 |
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不再空虚
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Re: If I am a Christian
为什么要信中关村？中关村的股市已经被贬得一败涂地了，中国很多散户股民一辈子的积蓄都被它圈走了:-(据说它原来的价位在３０多元人民币，在没有扩容的现在，其价位已经缩小了１０倍．东山恐再也不起了．
以耶稣基督的心为心
| 发表时间：2005-06-20, 10:22:40 |
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dolphin
发表文章数: 179
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Re: If I am a Christian
既然连中关村都信,为什么不信上帝呢? :)
| 发表时间：2005-06-20, 20:01:34 |
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No-go
发表文章数: 369
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Re: If I am a Christian
An interesting article about believing god, not from teaching of any religion:
敬畏巧变，「大解放」
共产党一向无神论，经数十年的洗脑，它控制下的老百姓大多都是不信神，你一提
到有神论，他会用一种非常奇怪的眼光看着你，像看动物一样，然后丢给你一句
「封建迷信」了事，你再坚持，他就说：「哪有神，找出来让我看看呀。」
当然内外有别，对待老外咱中国人是不会跟人家计较的，看到电影里一句「上帝保
佑」，还挺有味道的，老外嘛，他就是那样，咱中国人可不会耽误那闲功夫。
也有到庙里烧香拜佛的，多数是求运，求福，求财。我烧了香了，花了钱了，磕了
头了，真求来甚么了，公平交易，咱也不欠庙里甚么。如果你问谁给的，是不是神
佛赐的，我不关心，我也看不见，但可以告诉你的是，那是自己拜来的，自己给自
己求来的，说白了，是劳动所得，你想咋的，是不是眼红。
就是这样，当代中国人眼里，神佛不过是被共产党封为常住庙里工作的心理官员，
每天有接待任务，调节大众心理需求。需要时，借来用用，不需要了，打你一棍子
「封建迷信」。在中国的现代神佛真是很辛苦，任劳任怨，真正做到了为「情为民
所系，利为民所谋」，当然服务效果有待评估计，但是可惜的是主体形象看不见，
摸不到，评个先进，又没法提名，只能甘当幕后英雄了。
人类在几千年来的历史中，从来没有像现代中国这样如此功利的对待神佛之事。中
国5000年的炎黄文化中，扣除中共的50多年的无神论党文化教育，其余的4900多年
不都是在对神佛的敬畏之中过来的吗。对神佛是恭敬的，因为人只有在神佛的教化
下方得有解脱苦难的回归之道，人对神佛又是敬畏的，因为因果报因，善恶分明，
神目如电，俗话说「头上三尺有神灵」。
共产党一来，真是「大解放」，人一下就从5000年的对神佛敬畏之中被彻底解放了。
共产党的理由很充分，谁也没有看到神，看不见，就不用信。大小运动之后，神佛
的地位随即就一落千丈，庙破像毁，有的更是无家可归。
人们能看得见的是甚么呢？就是共产党的权威，那种支配神佛的权威，说砸就砸，
说立就立。真是眼见为实，谁叫你神佛不显现。所以敬畏的对象就自然被共产党取
代了，这是看得见的无神论中的「土神」，人被要求「敬」其一贯「伟大、光荣、
正确」，也同时「畏」其对每个人灵魂思想无微不至的关怀与控制。敬畏一词没变，
而对像从造物主上苍转为地上「救星」共产党。
敬不起来，畏难消
近期共产党的「神位」实在让国人敬不起来了，只能怪它自己魔性难改，坏事做的
太多太实，眼见为实嘛，它自己宣传的，当然人就敬不起来了。它也放弃了让你敬
的意思，它从一开始就知道某一天会这样，那怎么办，它就让你甚么都不敬，无法
无天，只敬自己。它但是敬畏二字，丢了敬，还有畏。这么多年下来，对共产党的
畏怕已经不是来自共产党的魔性本身了，而是发自人内心的本能反应，像遗传因子
一样，一代传一代。
你也许会骂几句共产党，那只不过是心理发泄，你是从不敢动真的叛念，谁不怕魔
鬼算计你呢？
不信你就做个试验，你关起门，当然是严肃的样子，就一个人说给自己听：我要背
弃共产党。说完看看你的心跳是多少。人一想到共产党要整你，盯著你，一般就会
发抖，这就是标准的中国人的反应。
世上只有神佛能降妖魔，可是中国人把神佛踩在脚下，玩在嘴边，根本得不到一点
正信加持，又如何能不怕魔爪，坦然自重呢？
有神无神，答案自明
看不见的神佛到底有没有？答案远在天边，近在眼前，相生相克嘛，就在无神的共
产党身上就写著有神的标准答案。
共产时代前，人类历史上从来就没有出现过大规模的无神论地域与人群，信神是人
类生活的自然和谐的一部分。可是中共搞个无神论横行50多年，俨然造就了十多亿
的不正信神佛的特异人群。
再看现在的这片土地，人们从路不拾遗，到见死不救，从自觉自律，到贪官污吏横
行，从不做愧心事，到有钱就是娘等等等等，人心道德下滑到如此地步，也就是一
晃50年的共产党的无神管制。
中共爱用权，爱管人，不信神，那咱们就帮人类做个实验，求神佛网开一面，暂时
不管人间之事，试想一下，让这个中共掌管一次全人类，而且从原始社会就让它管
起，让他过足干瘾，一直管到咱现代社会。你凭良心说，人经过5000年的共产党的
教化，反天，反地，反人类，无神论，没报应，真是不捞白不捞，不害白不害，有
生之年就要享受，死后哪管洪水滔天。如此这般的演化，人类近化发展到今天会是
甚么样子。
经过5000年的无神论的红潮洗礼，你说人类会成为甚么样，凭你对50年来的中共无
神论的了解，想像一下，还有没有你存在的空间，还有没有你插脚的地方。人类如
何能延到今天，挨到今天。简单的说5000是100个50,就是说你喝的水再污染一百倍，
你面对的险恶人心再邪恶100倍，你还能是你现在的样子吗？
所以说，中共的无神论的奇怪存在，50年的颠倒人伦的演绎，人性的丑恶一面的恶
性膨胀，正是从反面强有力的证明：确有神佛存在，没有神好好的管理安排人类过
去的几千年，人类早就散架了。
| 发表时间：2005-06-20, 21:07:42 |
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like
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Re: If I am a Christian
无论哪种宗教的教义按字面记述来看都是荒谬可笑的,所以在远离宗教的地方,很多不吝于不逊的语气和字词的人自然因此不觉得用这些东西鄙夷笑话宗教及有关者时会有所失.
讨论基督教问题时Sage倾向于对其教义的评析批判;以Sage的智识见知,不会不明白No-go的中心观点是基督教有使世人向善从戒崇圣的作用,不会不理解空虚mm信基督教主要得到的是古板教义要表达的精神和力量,所以我想, Sage和卢站长倾向于从教义上谈宗教可能是,对基督教的氛围和教义的真切感知和对现代人认真从头接受教义的不合理性的透彻认识,使他们主要在考虑现代人信从基督教已不可取的现实.按Sage所说,人的进步来自于理性和人文.这里结合一下现在的国内,如何能让或处在对各种名利实物的无头攀比或处在层层盘剥欺压坑蒙中的人们,有更多一些的安宁快乐和承受坚忍,有对平等博爱和严肃悲悯的趋同,基督教在国内既然无本也不必溯源倒退回去原样地信从它,这些健康向上的精神和力量应该可以从现在已相当发达的理性和人文去获得;至于亘古留存的人的恐惧不甘和心痛的方面也可以用现世充分的快乐和满足去化解.
不管以上理解是否对,我可以从Sage的观点中感受到一种自然平和的态度,尤其是对包括最难面对的问题的一切问题有效地应用这种态度,使我只能赞曰:大力神无敌.无论如何,从来就有的感受认知以前从未被触碰,也从未想到可以改变, 谢谢繁星这里的智者使人开思增益.
基督徒不是让Sage这样的人来当的,如果十人中有一个Sage,就从不必借助任何宗教的精神和力量,也可以有安宁充实的个人和社会.如果Sage生逢中世纪,最理想的境遇就是在神学院以上帝的名义对自然追本溯源.
信对了God而不是demons才可以上Heaven否则下hell,让人难选;旧的God残忍和无力;新的God无效和悖理;整个bible人造,无信,出错,残缺;没信对God好像仍然可以有love;救赎为什么非要信奉?
到了a good christian而非现代的sage那里就变成:相信全能慈爱严正的God,克制掘弃错念和错行,努力行善自爱和负责,全能慈爱严正的God就与me同在.
宗教不一定必有,如果树立起健康合理的精神和力量,No disaster will happen.但支持基督教的No-go虽有时略显性急但越在对峙时刻反显敦厚温和,信奉基督教的空虚mm虽因信教的生活和理念有一种不相格入的感觉,但有时的片言只语显出真知灼见(此外写出的英文显出优美而不显生涩,是客栈里除Sage等流畅自如的英文外的又一亮色.)在现代社会,基督教可能只留下一种向上的精神和力量.当然就我自己来说,更需要自然平和的态度和感受.
| 发表时间：2005-06-21, 04:24:58 |
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