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Causality Tutorial

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sage

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Causality Tutorial



Let me begin with a quote from Xing Kong

>为了避免因果悖论,信号是不能超光速的,这是共识,至于它如何会导致a close time curve,
>我不清楚.利用 是否产生close time curve来分析因果律问题,属于相对论专家级水平,对于
>非相对论专业的,只有设计悖论来判断。

>如果sage兄发射一颗子弹打死拉登,那子弹是超光速的,那么另一个观察者可能看到sage
>兄还没开枪时,拉登已经中弹身亡。这时候这个观察者赶紧拿一块板子挡在拉登面前,
>sage兄发出的子弹终于来到,但是被板子挡住了。这样就有了一个悖论:
>拉登到底该不该死?

You might have heard similar claims elsewhere.

It is probably one of the most wide spread misconception that
propagating outside of the light-cone means violation of
causality. Let's recall why we often see comments like this.

In special relativity, nothing can propagate outside the
light-cone. Therefore, there is no causal relation between space-like
events outside of the light-cone because there is no way we can
propagate outside of light-cone. Two things should not be causally
connected if there no way to propagate signal bewteen them. This is true.

However, let's suppose we can propagate signal outside of the
lightcone (obviously we are breaking Lorentz invariance). This shows
that space-like (defined still by light-speed) events could be
causally connected. However, does this necessarily implies violation
of causality? Definitely not.

Technically, causality means whether A could propagate a signal,
send it to B. B should not be able to send it back before A send
it. Sending a signal outside of the lightcone is very far away from
achieving that.

It should be very easy to understand this point by drawing graphs with
light-cones and worldlines. However, I cannot do it here. I could only
give instructions on how to draw them and interpret them. Since you
are all experts on relativity, you should be able to do it on a piece
of paper and understand.

Now, let's only have 1 space dimension. In the frame of A, x
(horizontal) is some distance. Suppose A is at x=0. A's world-line,
vertical axis, defines the time coordinate for A. Let's say B is at
x=x0. Now, A send a signal to B. Let's call it s. s travels faster than
light in the frame of A. the worldline for s is a light with a slope
less than 45 degrees.

Let call the event A send out signal a and put point a at the origin. Let's
call the event B receives signal point b. a and b are space-like and
now causally connected. however, would B be able to send the signal
back to A before A send it? the best B can do is send s back right
away. s will go though a worldline in -x direction with a the slope
defined by speed of s. That world line will intersect the world line
of A at some positive value t. that is, A will receive the signal back
AFTER send it out.

Now. If there is a C moving respect to A, what is this episode
appearing to C?

There is a way of drawing the reference frame of C on the same
plot. C's worldline, with slope being inverse of the velocity of C
relative to A, defines the time axis, t', for the reference frame of C. x'
axis for C is also tilted upward with a slope determined by Lorentz
contraction.

now suppose x' of C is titled in such a way that point b is below
x'. Now, project b to t' axis by drawing a line from b parallel to
x'. you will see that in the frame of C, b happen at some negative
t'. This means, in the frame of C, b has a time coordinate earlier
than a (which is at the origin).

this is nothing but the statement that Lorentz boost could change the
time order of two space-like event. In special relativity, this is not
a problem because a and b are not causally connected, their time
labels mean nothing. However, in our case, a and b are causally
connected by signal s. is this a violation of causality?

It is not.

Let assume the role of observer C. Now, how should C know the event b
happened? The best way to do it is for B to send back a signal s to
C. The s is again a world line in -x direct with a slope of the speed
of s. if you draw it correctly, you will see it intersects t' axis of
frame C at positive t' value. This means C only learned about event b
after the knowledge of event a.

A good physicist C will conclude the following

1) C sees event a at t'=0, and then event b at t'>0, after event
a. There is nothing C can do to prevent a after C knows b
happened. There is no paradox can be constructed here. No problem
with causality.

2) C will measure the speed of s, and then extrapolate backwards and
conclude that b corresponds to t'<0 in his coordinates. He will
then conclude, based on this observation, that b is the reason for
a.

3) Therefore, if C derive physics laws based on this observation, it
will be backward in comparison to A.

4) Physics laws will depend on the frame (A or C) in this case. This
is what one expect anyway when one violates Lorentz invariance!

It will be a strange world. However, it is still a world with
causality, a reasonable world.


发表时间:2005-07-13, 22:53:09 作者资料

西门吹牛

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Re: Causality Tutorial



有不少文献探讨过超光速下如何避免因果悖论,从而试图引进一种称为“速子”的物质。
感觉这方面探讨起来比较伤脑筋,就象争论量子力学中的一些基础问题一样。

昌海兄对这些好象研究得也比较多。除了sage兄之外,不知其他各位对此有什么看法?

上次在《科学的美国人》杂志上看到一篇文章,说是很多人,包括一些天文学家自己,对“宇宙膨胀”有着错误的理解。文章说,宇宙膨胀是时空本身在膨胀,而各个天体本身其实在自己的位置上并没有动。两个天体之间的距离以超光速增加,但不违背因果律,因为那是距离在增加,而不是物体相对运动速度是超光速的。

sage兄要留心的一点是:即使象温伯格,也是要借助于反粒子概念,来避免超光速过程所可能产生的因果悖论。

我不知道sage兄的观点算不算相对论近年来的新进展所带来的新认识?我只懂一些传统的,粗浅的相对论理论,例如对广义相对论,只了解不需要现代微分几何所描述的那种水平上的,“类时间闭合曲线”的概念我以前都没有听说过。


一舞剑气动四方,天下英雄莫能挡
形踪飘忽疑无影,冷面郎君傲雪霜


发表时间:2005-07-13, 23:36:19 作者资料

sage

发表文章数: 1125
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Re: Causality Tutorial



sage兄要留心的一点是:即使象温伯格,也是要借助于反粒子概念,来避免超光速过程所可能产生的因果悖论。

as I said in my article, this is because we want to keep lorentz invariance. In that case, a sensible theory should not allow one to propagate outside of the light-cone (just from Lorentz invariance alone). therefore, we need anti-particle to cancel the amplitude outside of the lightcone. this is not for preserving causality. it is for preserving Lorentz invariance


发表时间:2005-07-13, 23:44:44 作者资料

星空浩淼

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Re: Causality Tutorial



谢谢sage兄!也许我过去学的那点东西的确有些过时,呵呵

过些时我才能再来(眼下要忙一下),仔细领会一下你上面所讲的,毕竟这个需要仔细推敲和思考。这之前也希望其他人来提供更多信息和讨论(比如HPC和轩轩在这方面应该是本行吧),到时我来一并消化。


唯有与时间赛跑,方可维持一息尚存


发表时间:2005-07-13, 23:50:13 作者资料

星空浩淼

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Re: Causality Tutorial



补充一句:sage兄这个话题,是一个非常好、非常有价值的话题。

事实上,我觉得因果律与超光速的关系问题,似乎是狭义相对论带给我们的最大禁戒,也是人们一直以来试图突破的问题。


唯有与时间赛跑,方可维持一息尚存


发表时间:2005-07-13, 23:58:26 作者资料

卢昌海

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Re: Causality Tutorial



我想大家的分歧主要在于对 causality violation 的定义。sage兄认为 causality violation 只有在 closed timelike curve 存在的情况下才可以出现,而星空兄所举的例子并不具有 closed timelike curve,因此sage兄不认为该例子破坏因果律。

我的看法是:sage兄所用的 causality violation 的定义是比较 hard core 的。在存在 closed timelike curve 的情况下,原则上可以发生诸如回到过去打死自己之类会导致逻辑矛盾的 causality violation,这是所有 causality violation 中最为严重的一类。因此sage兄所用的这个定义几乎是所有有关 causality violation 的定义所共同包含的部分。

但是 causality violation 是否只限于这种类型,则不同的人有不同的看法。我个人认为所有以下情形都应该列为 causality violation:即如果在某个物理参照系中,一个绝对只能在 A 之后作为 A 的结果而发生的事件 B 在 A 之前发生了。

拿星空兄所举的例子来说,如果sage兄手上有世界上唯一的一把枪,可以发射超光速子弹;而依照各个参照系中都成立的材料力学规律,拉登同志的脑袋只有用这把枪所发射的子弹才射得穿。我们定义事件A为:sage兄开枪;事件B为:拉登因脑袋被子弹射穿而死。则事件B就是一个绝对只能在A之后作为 A 的结果而发生的事件。如果在某个参照系(比如sage兄提到的物理学家C所在的参照系)中事件B先于事件A而发生了,则我认为我们可以说因果律在该参照系中被破坏了。这种破坏虽然不象在有 closed timelike curve 的情况下可能产生的逻辑矛盾那样尖锐,但也非常的不reasonable。因为除开这一事件(假定是个例)外,那个世界(即那个参照系所看到的世界)的一切物理现象都符合与其它世界(即其它参照系所看到的世界)一样的物理定律,那个世界对时间方向的定义也与其它世界相一致,唯有这一事件无法理解。


宠辱不惊,看庭前花开花落
去留无意,望天空云卷云舒


发表时间:2005-07-14, 14:24:17 作者资料

sage

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Re: Causality Tutorial



Well, let's not argue about what 'reasonable' means. When I say reasonable, I mean as long as there is no close timelike curve, there is always a way to modify physics laws to make sense of what happened. Of course, such a modification will have to depend on the relative velocity of the frames. In other word, there is notion of absolute velocity now. This is exactly what you are supposed to get from breaking Lorentz invariance.

for our example, C will probably modify the physics laws in the following way (I could be wrong on some details)

1) if there is time reversal invariance, then everything is consistent because an absorber can also be equaly a emitter. He will just claim b is an emission event and a is an absorption event. He will have to reverse the causal order of all the events associate with signal s.

here is at least a world that could have been consistently existing.

2) if there is no time reversal, it is a little bit more complicated. he would have to change the other laws of physics as well, including material science, at least for those related to the signal s processes. emitter only becomes absorber only, and vice versa,,,,,


Again, these change do not pose causal problems. it is indeed saying the laws of physics are changed. It is a strange world, but not impossible.

Lorentz violation gets more attention recently as the infrared modifcation will involve spontaneous breaking of Lorentz symmetry.


发表时间:2005-07-14, 23:07:32 作者资料

卢昌海

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Re: Causality Tutorial



让我们先将讨论的范围稍稍界定一下。由于我们上面所有的讨论都是用狭义相对论的框架讨论不同参照系中的时序。因此让我们假定所讨论的物理世界基本上是 normal 的,超光速现象只是罕见的个例。否则的话,在一个超光速现象非常普遍的世界里,也许根本就不会有人提出狭义相对论这样的理论,所有以狭义相对论为依据的讨论本身就未必有意义。我们不考虑那种更为复杂的情形,我们讨论的只是超光速对参照系C中的物理规律(也就是我们所熟知的物理规律)的冲击有多大。

在这种情况下,在出现我们所讨论的现象之前,C 的一切物理规律与其它参照系并没有什么不同,宏观现象(尤其是开枪杀人这样的现象)没有可逆性。因此参照系 C 中的物理学家将试图用上述 2) 的方式来解释拉登同志之死。但是这种解释并不像相像得那样容易。我前面帖子中的那句“依照各个参照系中都成立的材料力学规律,拉登同志的脑袋只有用这把枪所发射的子弹才射得穿”可能给人一个错误印象,似乎那种材料力学规律是什么很复杂的规律,如果那样的话参照系 C 放弃它也未必不可思议。但事实上整个情形可以简化为世界上只有一把枪,握在sage兄手里(这在任何参照系、任何时刻都可以检验),拉登同志赤手空拳(这同样在任何参照系、任何时刻都可以检验),而所谓“各个参照系中都成立的材料力学规律”只不过是说拉登同志无法赤手把子弹塞进自己的脑壳。在C中为了解释这一现象就把象“拉登同志无法赤手把子弹塞进自己的脑壳”这样显而易见的规律推翻与认为C中不再有什么物理规律也没太大分别。

退一步讲,即使参照系 C 中的物理学家连放弃“拉登无法赤手把子弹塞进自己脑壳”这样显而易见的规律也不介意,硬把子弹说成是拉登自己塞进脑袋的(这样它与sage兄开枪就没有因果联系了),也还是不行。因为上面我只是想借用星空兄的例子。其实整个例子可以简化为:世界上只有一把枪可以发射超光速子弹,某人用该枪把子弹射入了一块木板中(木板与任何其它东西都远离 - 这是在任何参照系、任何时刻都可以检验的)。现在,参照系 C 中出现了木板中有子弹比某人开枪更早的情形。它的不可解释性不涉及任何材料力学或其它物理规律(木板是不会自己把子弹塞进木板中的)。

当然,如果参照系 C 中的物理学家仍要提出古怪说法,诸如在C中子弹根本不需要开枪就可以somehow 进入木板中,那么即使有 closed timelike curve,也未必难得倒他们,他们可以说一个人即使二十年前已经被杀死,也可以somehow 出现在今天。这原本是我们认为铁定被因果律所禁止的东西,但倘若参照系 C 中的物理学家已经发展到连上面例子中的假设都可以作出的程度,我就看不出还有什么其它假设不可以作。

归根到底,这只是定义问题,没有对错之分。以上只是要说明超光速所可能导致的对物理定律的冲击与 closed timelike curve 所导致冲击在程度上并不象想象的那样差别显著。


宠辱不惊,看庭前花开花落
去留无意,望天空云卷云舒


发表时间:2005-07-15, 07:27:59 作者资料

sage

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Re: Causality Tutorial



Well, if we really stick to this example, I will say that the brain manufactured that bullet and squeeze it out and send it to the gun....

anyway, I think we agree that it is very strange but possible.

Let me say why I think distinguishing between closed timelike curve and others is important.

like you said, it is only meaningful when the lorentz violation, signal s, is very rare or very weak. otherwise we should be just talking about s-cones, rather than light cones.

To be more concrete, let's think about our world. let's make the signal s very weak, say, gravitational strength or even smaller.

Then, if there is no closed time-like curve, all our physics laws on non-gravitational physics will not change. We will not be able to measure our own speed by doing QED experiment. There is no need to modify those theories since they will still be valid and explain experiments they are supposed to explain to very good approximation. We will be able to measure our speed by performing an experiment involving gravitational strength test since we need small changes when talking about gravitational interactions. However, we do not measure gravitational interactions very well anyway.

However, things are different when there is closed time-like curve. In that case, the behavior of a particle will depend on its complete furture lightcone, although through some weak interaction. It is an integration of small effect. It is certainly much harder to make a sensible model that way.


发表时间:2005-07-15, 08:22:24 作者资料

卢昌海

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Re: Causality Tutorial



There certainly is no disagreement on any hard fact we mentioned above. Let me just add a few comments about what I think is more "harder" (or "easier") - purely subjective to be sure.

To me, it is actually a lot more EASIER to discribe what might happen if a particle can interact with it's complete future/past light core than to describe how someone's brain could manufacture a bullet and send it back to a gun. It is at least a well-posed or close to be well-posed problem. I wouldn't be too scared if I was assigned to work on such a topic. In fact there are already people working in this direction, studying whether quantum effects will destroy such closed timelike curves, etc. But I would be terribly scared if I was asked to make sense out of the brain-manufacturing-bullet process (whatever physical law I modify must still be able to describe all regular physical phenomena). That is a truely hopeless task, many orders of magnitude more difficult than anything else I can conceive.

Having a closed timelike curves touches the foundation of physical laws a lot more directly, which raises problems in a more concrete way, that's probably why physicists tend to restrict their discussion in this type when they talking about violation of causality. The word "causality", however, actually has a stronger meaning in macroscopic world (macroscopic world is much more "irreversible", which makes "cause" and "effect" more distinguishable than in microscopic world), that's where those faster-than-light puzzles come in, and that's why I consider them examples of violation of causality - but ultimately, it is nothing but a matter of definition.

Another comment I would like to add is: however weak the faster-than-light signal might be, it can always be magnified to cause issues as terrible as those we talked above. One just need to build a utility only such signal can trigger (this is always possible as long as the signal is detectable).


宠辱不惊,看庭前花开花落
去留无意,望天空云卷云舒


发表时间:2005-07-15, 12:19:37 作者资料

sage

发表文章数: 1125
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Re: Causality Tutorial



Another comment I would like to add is: however weak the faster-than-light signal might be, it can always be magnified to cause issues as terrible as those we talked above. One just need to build a utility only such signal can trigger (this is always possible as long as the signal is detectable).
=============================================================================

this certainly possible. one just have to make such a machine.

And, it could be true in our real world as well if Lorentz symmetry is violated in such a way that one can propagate some signal faster than the speed of light. We do not know that our world is NOT like that.

If I am asked to make a model of our world where lorentz symmetry is violated at gravitational strength, and also consistent with all our current knowledge and known experimental facts. It will be very easy to do it. I will also be able to propose to build a machine that we can measure our speed, and all the strange effects. I don't see why it is terrible, it is just time-reversal in the simple case if the new interaction has such a symmetry. It will make me feel quite unconfortable , to be sure. However, I am not if that is not just because I am educated by Einstein. I don't see any inconsistency in such a world.

Maybe one can understand a world with (after all the quantum gravity effect) closed time-like curves. however, I suspect we will have to rethink our notion of explanation in a very different way in that case. I am sure someone will find a very interesting resolution to this question. Right now, I feel this is stranger because I (maybe just me) could not think of even a possible way to make sense of it in principle.


发表时间:2005-07-15, 13:40:19 作者资料

西门吹牛

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Re: Causality Tutorial



今天时间仓促,下次来慢慢看,看还有什么疑问


一舞剑气动四方,天下英雄莫能挡
形踪飘忽疑无影,冷面郎君傲雪霜


发表时间:2005-07-16, 06:26:17 作者资料

西门吹牛

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Re: Causality Tutorial



昌海兄尽量别用英文吧,这个话题我相信很多人愿意看,不仅仅是你们两个之间看。在问题争论中,即使用国语,相互之间有时都会不能完全领会对方要表达的意思(几乎任何争论中的一部分,都来源于语言理解上的分歧),何况不是用国语。


一舞剑气动四方,天下英雄莫能挡
形踪飘忽疑无影,冷面郎君傲雪霜


发表时间:2005-07-16, 06:43:07 作者资料

西门吹牛

发表文章数: 469
武功等级: 空明拳
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内力值: 416/416

Re: Causality Tutorial



到目前为止,就我学的所有教材,和看到的所有物理大师们的言论,对于超光速和因果律违反之间的关系,都好象没有sage兄所说的这样严格。

另外,温伯格在《引力论和宇宙论》中,也的确认为类空过程会违背因果律,但利用反粒子概念来解决了这个问题(标题就是“时序与反粒子”)。

Green(?)写的高级科普《宇宙的琴弦》中超光速和因果律违反之间的关系也有论述吧。


一舞剑气动四方,天下英雄莫能挡
形踪飘忽疑无影,冷面郎君傲雪霜


发表时间:2005-07-16, 06:55:40 作者资料

卢昌海

发表文章数: 1617
武功等级: 北冥神功
     (第一重)
内力值: 602/602

Re: Causality Tutorial



:: 昌海兄尽量别用英文吧,这个话题我相信很多人愿意看,

不好意思,我前两次回复用中文其实正是考虑到许多网友对这个话题可能有兴趣,不过后一次因时间匆忙,为了求快就用了英文。今后我将尽量用中文。


宠辱不惊,看庭前花开花落
去留无意,望天空云卷云舒


发表时间:2005-07-16, 09:03:20 作者资料